The Data That Matters

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Episode Summary:

Season One | Episode 24

Data. Data. Dada. However you say it, one thing is clear: not all data is created equal.

In this episode of Talentless, Ashley King and Desiree Goldey break down what data actually matters in talent acquisition and why most TA teams are stuck reporting numbers that don’t move the business forward.

This is a practical, no-fluff conversation about data literacy, business impact, and why knowing how to interpret data is the real leadership unlock for recruiters.

We cover:

• Why data literacy is the real glass ceiling in TA

• The difference between symptoms and root causes in recruiting data

• Why attrition and retention matter more than time-to-fill

• How pass-through ratios expose alignment (or misalignment) with hiring managers

• Why volume-based recruiting metrics are misleading

• How to monetize recruiting activity so executives actually listen

• Using qualitative + quantitative data together to drive better hiring outcomes

  
  

If you’ve ever felt like TA is stuck at the “reporting numbers” stage instead of influencing decisions, this episode is for you.

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Desiree Goldey (00:06)

All right, folks, welcome back to the Talentless Podcast when we talk about all things recruiting without the corporate fluff.

Ashley King (00:07)

I don't know.

Desiree Goldey (00:13)

And today we are talking about the data that matters. All right. As we all know, all data is not created equal. And so, Ashley, why don't you get into the topic explained today.

Ashley King (00:19)

murder.

Alright friends, well as you know, not all data is created equal just like what Des said. Not everything tells the same story and in fact some data can lead you to an incorrect conclusion if you don't know how to analyze or aggregate any of this information correctly or appropriately. So today's topic is really and truly about what are key metrics that matter the most within talent acquisition.

Desiree Goldey (00:52)

you

Ashley King (00:52)

And

truth be told, this is very dependent on who you ask. Some will say it is your average KPIs, others will say it's looking at leading and lagging indicators. We say it depends on what you believe talent's primary function to be. And so that's dependent on every single different organization. So if it's only based off of performance, if that is outcomes or if that's input, who knows? Is that impact, is it cost reduction?

Do we need to quantify our data data now? You know, what is the primary goal you find most important is one of the questions you have to ask to really find out what key metrics matter. And from that flows your measures. So I think that we should maybe start there and looking into maybe the three key areas of data that you should pay attention to if you're a recruiter. Okay.

Desiree Goldey (01:40)

Well, I wanna back up for a second. I wanna

back up a little bit because I do wanna get into those, but I do think that we should acknowledge just like we did in Recruiter Performance. And this, by the way, everybody is episode two backup to that Recruiter Performance, so if you need to go listen to Recruiter Performance as well. But I do think we need to back up and really think about how many actual recruiters know how to read.

Ashley King (01:50)

Okay.

Desiree Goldey (02:06)

data and how many managers and leaders know how to actually read their data. And I've sat with so many people who just don't even know what any of the numbers mean or even how to figure out how to get to them and how they're connected to the business. And so I think that's the starting point. It's like, you need to be doing this, And if you don't know how to do it, let's figure it out together,

Ashley King (02:29)

Yeah, so I will say I definitely

feel like there is a business acumen glass ceiling and the only way to shatter that is through data literacy. And if you cannot use actual tangible quantifiable numbers and measures to explain what it is you're doing to show the linear impact and to be able to

Desiree Goldey (02:37)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Ashley King (02:54)

also do predictive analytics on outcomes. So that way you're able to actually forecast in a way and that's again that leadership class ceiling. They're always looking towards the future at that point because you've gone from boots on the ground reactive doer to now you're progressing in business, right? So to be honest, the data and analytics is the literacy piece. It is the translation mechanism and it is the vehicle.

Desiree Goldey (03:13)

Yeah.

Ashley King (03:22)

that gets you from an IC into I wanna talk leadership, I wanna talk strategy, I wanna talk efficiency effectiveness, anything like that. It comes back to data.

Desiree Goldey (03:34)

Yeah, you know, for me, you know, this is like a topic that I know is near and dear to your heart. And it's definitely one of mine. It's definitely not how I spend the majority of my time sitting in it and really, really doing it. But I know how to, right? It's not my favorite thing to do all the time, but I definitely know how to do it. And I just think there's a ⁓ big gap between those of us that know how to read it, those that are actually doing something with it and really

Ashley King (03:49)

Mm.

Desiree Goldey (04:03)

showing the business and that goes to that strategic partnership thing I'm always talking about folks. Like if you don't know how to do this piece of it, you aren't being a strategic partner to the business and that's something that needs to change.

Ashley King (04:17)

we're thinking of what is the data that matters, and like I said, it's gonna be different for every company. It really depends on how they hold talent in their org, what they expect from them, and also whenever I say how they hold talent in their org, I mean how are they regarded? Are they taken into secession and people planning? Are they like,

Desiree Goldey (04:32)

Right.

Ashley King (04:35)

how involved are they? Because that kind of will let you know this as well. But one that I've found that is good reoccurring and true over and over and because of its relevancy to the business usually speaks volumes is actually attrition and turnover rates of your hires. Why is that important? One, I am a firm believer that a good recruiter's number one strategy is retention.

Desiree Goldey (04:55)

⁓ yes.

Ashley King (05:04)

Why do I say that? One, because if your number one strategy is retention, that means that you're always thinking of the business because you're thinking of how to eliminate cost measures and not do a revolving door of talent hires. But two, you're also thinking of the candidate. That means that you have to prioritize their desires as well because if it doesn't meet their need, they will not retain. They won't stay. They will atrit. And so

Desiree Goldey (05:20)

Right?

Ashley King (05:30)

The whole measuring turnover rates in attrition is really, really significant because it shows the business not only linear impact of anytime this recruiter hires someone, we see an average stay date of four years, which means for this role, we've increased XYZ. So that could be because of the recruiter, that could be because of the manager, that could be because of a thousand different things. But now we've diagnosed something going right.

Desiree Goldey (05:55)

Right?

Ashley King (05:58)

Right? so it's a part of, I mean, talent is a business function. So being able to show that linearity, being able to show, okay, now we know what good looks like, let's get everyone else to move forward in that direction. Once we've identified after seeing these symptoms, which data does for us, it's really, it's really a great thing. One other thing I'm going to point out just really quick, because I hear a lot of people use attrition and turnover like

Desiree Goldey (05:59)

Right?

Right.

⁓

Ashley King (06:25)

so like attrition is whenever the company makes them leave. Turnover is whenever they leave of their own volition.

⁓ But so yeah, essentially what it is is, they leave on their own or did they leave because they didn't meet the need? And again, that deciphering alone in articulation of the data.

Desiree Goldey (06:34)

Yeah.

Right.

Ashley King (06:46)

tells us is this an issue on the hiring? Is this an issue on the manager? And then you start establishing are there trends? And then you do your trend analysis from there. So hey, that's point number one.

Desiree Goldey (06:47)

Right.

Yeah.

Yeah, and I think definitely on the attrition, because there's this regrettable attrition rate that we talk about all the time. It's like, I left because I no longer wanted to work for you people. Or I got paid better somewhere else. Or you have a toxic work environment. I mean, some of that is like, you can start to look at those attrition rates and really diagnose some really strong things about your organization. Like if you really dive into them, it's serious. And I really, I have taken

Ashley King (07:20)

Yeah.

Desiree Goldey (07:25)

those numbers over time and go into leadership and said, hey, we have a problem here. Right? No, it's okay.

Ashley King (07:30)

Yeah, and I think that's key, not to interrupt you, but because here's the

thing, whenever you see there's a problem, you see there's a gap, see something is hazy here. That never necessarily implies what actually is the problem. It just is saying, well, no, I'm saying this because a second ago I was like, we could look and see if that attributes to the recruiter or the manager. I need to be so, so clear.

Desiree Goldey (07:45)

Right.

Ashley King (07:56)

that like just because you look at attrition, that is not because your recruiter can't do anything.

what happens is quantitative data tells us where these gaps are. It illuminates for us where these issues lie. It is through qualitative data that we actually find out what is the root cause.

And just so everyone on the phone knows, quantitative data is numerical data. Those are tangibles. have firm start finish. Qualitative data is spoken data. It's articulated language and words. So unless you're sitting there coding every single word and converting it to a actual amount, this is the why behind the actuals, which is your data.

Desiree Goldey (08:18)

Yeah.

Yeah, you know, I was talking to a CFO recently and he was like, you know, the cost of replacing an employee. I don't know why we don't put more emphasis on talent and attrition. Right. So your CFO doesn't care about, by the way, I read a great post about this the other day. So whoever wrote it, I'm sorry, I can't attribute it to you, but it was like your CFO doesn't care about time to fill. Right. Because it's not like it's not a true revenue marker for them, but they do care about attrition. And because every time a person leaves, you have to

Ashley King (08:50)

Mm-hmm.

Desiree Goldey (09:10)

replace that person. And the cost of doing that is astronomical, right? ⁓ So I guess I find it very interesting that people don't look more at that. It's one of my biggest data points ⁓ I've used over time.

Ashley King (09:15)

Yeah.

Yeah,

so I find it funny because what I see happen is they continue to put talent in a box and everybody is like, no, no, HR can talk about that. They can do this. They can look onto that. But again, retention should be our number one strategy. So whenever it comes to that diagnosis of, you know, what's going on, can that be HR and the digging? Absolutely.

Desiree Goldey (09:31)

Right.

Sure.

Ashley King (09:49)

But do implemented solutions need to happen and occur straight from the jump where TA is involved? Yes. So the way that this actually looks is once HR does their digging, let's say we found out that this manager is really, really hard on new people. I'm just gonna make this up. Let's say that he has great tenured individuals and anyone that's new, they kind of put them through a little hazy.

Desiree Goldey (10:06)

Bye.

Ashley King (10:13)

And we know this and it affects their retention and nutrition, but maybe they're the number one because most of the time these managers that get to stay that do those types of things are like the number one producer of something or tied to some contract or something. So we can't get rid of them, right? So we only have so many options. So then what we could do as HR professionals is say, okay, well, what if we created a baseline competency that we incorporated into the TA interview?

Desiree Goldey (10:24)

Right, right.

Ashley King (10:39)

that says, social integration is a little bit rougher on these edges. How do you socially integrate into a company and actually find someone where it could be a match? Because again, our job is to be matchmaker with what we have. I don't want to put someone in that role that I know is going to fail and have them leave their current job for something that's not going to work.

And what I also don't want to do is set up our hiring manager team for like, well, get over it because at the end of the day, it just puts that employee in a bad situation, especially if HR is not going to make any moves with management there. So I say all this to say that whenever you're using data and you're pulling out those qualitative such as the one I made up was, you know, maybe they're rough on the hazing for new kids.

then with these devices that you're left with, because it's just what you're left with, what can you then do to make it better for the prospective employee and for the managerial team as well?

Desiree Goldey (11:34)

Absolutely, such great points. you know, and I do want to say this, that I think there's a lot of people that either.

don't have the tools or system. Like if I'm a startup sometimes I think that there's not the tool or system that I can start measuring some of this stuff. But I want everyone on this call to really think about, think outside of the box on some of this stuff and start figuring out a system or tool. Maybe you can't afford one that works like a great ATS or something like that. But really starting to figure out how you can do this work, whether it's in Excel or whatever. I've done it for startups over time. But I do think you need to figure out how you can figure out

how to collect this data in a real way. And if you're not doing it now, I want you to start today.

Ashley King (12:17)

Yeah, hopefully your company does have

an ATS that can track every single one of these movements because every single movement is a measure. Whenever I move them to hiring manager screen that now measures how long they sat and candidate waiting. ⁓ So every single movie mate and that's why ATSs are I don't want to say powerful but somewhat is because it's giving us those exact measures.

Desiree Goldey (12:22)

Alright.

Right.

Yep.

Yeah, they are.

Ashley King (12:40)

And so I want to encourage you to know your systems are already measuring everything. You just haven't pulled the data for it and you don't know what to do with it next. And so those are where the opportunities for our growth as TA leaders, as TA managers and TA partners to really swing in and say, okay, how can I increase my literacy and data and how can I better understand analytics and how

Desiree Goldey (12:46)

Yes. Right. Exactly. Right. Right.

Ashley King (13:09)

I can get to a point where I can speak this language, not only tell stories, but do assessment and analysis and investigative work to really suss out, hey, what is the root cause of all of this? And a lot of that is behavioral data and analytics. It's going through and asking those deep diver questions that really illuminates, you know, what's cause, what's effect, and what's just left around the room whenever it's done.

pass-through ratios are super-duper important and not in the way that I think most people think. Some people like to look at pass-through ratios and then just, well, first of all, they look at pass-through rates. That's a very different thing than pass-through ratios. I want to illuminate that very clearly for everybody listening here.

Desiree Goldey (13:46)

Wait.

Ashley King (13:52)

Cause everybody's like, I went through my path through, I put in 20 and went to 15 and then to 12 and it's like, la ti da. I don't care about the actual numbers that went through. What I want to know is the actual ratio of your efforts. And so what that means specifically is I want to know that however many people you send, your manager takes your like,

Desiree Goldey (14:00)

Hmm.

ratio, right?

Ashley King (14:18)

takes on your candidates a minimum of 80 % of the time. Minimum. Why? Because that lets me know how aligned and in tuned you are with this manager. If you are someone who is just sending a whole bucket of people and slapping it, then your pass through ratio for that is gonna be a piece of junk. And that right there tells me, are you a spaghetti thrower or are you intentional? I love to see

Desiree Goldey (14:22)

Right.

Ashley King (14:45)

talent professionals whose ratios are ridiculous. Meaning for like every two people the TAP sends the manager, they're always hiring one that they sourced, that they found, that they sent, whatever it may be, to where you can see this very direct alignment. And what happens whenever you see that direct alignment, what happens whenever you see, ⁓ my goodness,

They don't send their manager 15 people. They only send seven, but of those seven people that they send, the manager takes them all versus we have a recruiter that sends those 15, that higher quantity, but the manager only takes three. Those are two very, very different ratios. You have one that's a hundred percent ratio, and then you have one that is three out of 15. So that's one fifth. That's 20%.

Desiree Goldey (15:23)

Right.

Ashley King (15:43)

But if we're just looking at production and what you're producing, you may look at this and say, well, this recruiter was able to bring in 15, quote unquote, qualified candidates to the manager, thus their output was right. However, their effectiveness, how well they placed those 15 people was not. And this is why the ratio matters, because it's telling us how aligned are these people actually.

Another reason this ratio matters is because how many times have you gotten a call from operations or from the field that says, talent cannot find me anyone, talent is finding us no one, right? Let me tell you how this conversation and narrative is fixed. You go into that data and you look at pass through ratios of every single touch point in the funnel that is controlled by the hiring manager and their interview team.

Desiree Goldey (16:18)

Yeah, my gosh. Yeah.

Ashley King (16:36)

That's usually your step two, three, and four, because usually you do recruiter, screen, then you have hiring manager interview. That's alignment number one. Are we as a recruiter aligned with the hiring manager? We wanna see high, high, high ratio there. Great. Next thing is it goes to those peers. Now, this tells us two things. How aligned are those peers with this hiring manager? And how aligned are those peers with this recruiter?

And if we notice that there's a high drop off from the manager interview into that peer interview, then that may mean that your manager is far too generous and it's actually the peer that's the one that has the scrutiny and may have to work with them majority of the time.

to where really the group you need to be pleasing isn't necessarily the manager, but you need to do a quick intake with that peer that's gonna be really the one overseeing and scrutinizing. Usually this one does the technical interview, things like that, the one that really gets in to that niche aptitude of can they do this job in this skillset? That's who you need to be connecting with.

Desiree Goldey (17:29)

Right.

Ashley King (17:43)

Now, if we see that there's a high drop that just continues happening between these steps two, three, or four, where there's the hiring manager interview, the peer interview, or your C-suite, however, whatever combination you have of that, every single time you have a drop, if there continues to be a trend, that tells you where the misalignment is.

So how I said, so many times people say talent can't find me anyone, is usually someone at a senior level, usually around the third or fourth interview, where now they're having this bad drop off where they've seen, let's say five candidates at the last interview and they've rejected them all. So two things, one, it's a misalignment on their team.

All right, because if we've had everybody go through the process and everybody's qualified them up to this point and just that one person isn't aligned, then there's that. Number two, the narrative of talent hasn't gotten me anything is what they primarily utilize. However, it's not that talent hasn't provided them anything. It's that talent provided them with what the peer or hiring managers wanted. So illuminating for them that like, hey,

This is actually a little bit more of an intra-team alignment. So let's walk through and see where these misalignments are hitting and kind of coaching them and being consultative with them to really suss out, all right, what is going to meet the mark here? And I can't tell you how many times just having that touch point, having that, okay, we're looking and seeing that there's a trend where there's a disconnect.

Person X, what is it about these individuals that you are liking or not liking? And person Y, what is it about these people that you feel you can coach to give confidence to the senior leader that you could take on these people with gaps X and Y and still execute the needs of this business? That's the conversation you need to be helping them have.

Desiree Goldey (19:39)

Yeah, think too, like I was working with a very junior recruiter recently and I think they see it as like an achievement to send a bunch of candidates for no reason, like, or they see it as a failure if they're not getting,

Ashley King (19:51)

Mm.

Desiree Goldey (19:54)

their numbers up. And I want us to stop thinking about that and talent. Like we have to have these crazy numbers. No, we need to have alignment. We need to have like, we know what this role does, what they're looking for and submitting those people, not submitting 50 people when none of them are gonna get through. I think we're still stuck in this like volume means something. And that's, it's just not true. It's definitely not true.

Ashley King (20:13)

Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, yeah, you and I have always

agreed quantity and quality are not the same thing. Not only that, whenever we're thinking of, you had made mentioned at one point, the cost of vacancy to have this role open, the cost to have recruiting staff on it, the cost to have your managers out of the line of business to go interview for a few hours a week or whatever. All of those things add up. So whenever we think of

Desiree Goldey (20:25)

Not

Yeah.

Ashley King (20:42)

how can a recruiter be better aligned and actually conserve our manager's time? This is again, like a cost saving mechanism as well, because it's saying, I'm not gonna have you waste your time on all this banana stuff. I'm actually gonna be a consultant for you, do all of it for you, and you just pick whoever you like the most. That is who, or not whomever you like the most, whoever's the most qualified, but that is what...

Desiree Goldey (20:52)

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah.

Ashley King (21:09)

you know, it really should be. And it, and it for the most part, is them.

Desiree Goldey (21:12)

I'm always talking about the value

of time, of people's time as well. right? There's something to be said if you're dragging a hiring manager to like 17 interviews. Like, it's just not appropriate to the business. That's when you start to look like you're not really a partner.

Ashley King (21:23)

Yeah.

Desiree Goldey (21:28)

Right? Because you are wasting people's time. You're wasting profit, revenue, all the things, because that hiring manager could be do something else.

Ashley King (21:28)

⁓ 100%.

I'm a firm believer in like the the three commodity trio of like time, money and knowledge to me are the three commodities that like I need to be getting two of those three to even be present here. So like if you're taking my time, then we should either be making money or you should be giving me knowledge.

Desiree Goldey (21:42)

Yes. Yeah. Time.

Yeah.

Right.

Ashley King (21:57)

If you're

giving me knowledge, then it's okay that you take my time or it's okay that you take my money. If you're taking my time, it's okay. Like, you know, like there's an exchange here that can kind of go about, but I feel that it's kind of with any time you get with people who are higher up, the knowledge and time become a higher commodity than. So if you're taking their time, you better be giving them knowledge.

Desiree Goldey (22:20)

Absolutely.

Ashley King (22:25)

Okay, moving onward. Okay, number three, and I'm gonna talk about this because we do not hear talent professionals talk about this enough. Holy smack. And this is not hard to do. So I want all talent professionals listening to this to be like, oh, maybe I'll do that. Like, that's all I want to happen from this next section. And it is this.

Desiree Goldey (22:26)

I'm

Ashley King (22:48)

You need, how I was saying, every single thing is measuring everything you do in that system. You need to take every move and you need to monetize it. I mean, yes, you need to translate every activity to a price tag. Why? Because talent is a business function. Do you want good tools?

Do you want freedom and trust to shape an integral hiring process? And do you want a good cut of budget to be able to do it? Then you need to prove that the investment into TA is worth it, especially under your command. And nothing speaks to every single executive in the whole entire room like dollar signs. It will not matter if they are COO, CEO, CTO.

everyone communicates that one language is data. It's numbers period is the language just so you know.

Desiree Goldey (23:45)

It's numbers period, ⁓

Ashley King (23:46)

but it's a matter of

does it have a decimal point and a dollar sign or is it just a percentage or so whenever I say like use the vacancy rate use cost of hire use the loss of productivity cost make a matrix that is custom to your company that says every time we hire someone at the degree difficulty role of a level six whatever your leveling is for your company

Desiree Goldey (23:52)

Bye.

Yeah.

Ashley King (24:09)

That means that we have to use a senior recruiter and it cost us this much. Like have a literal thing to guide you. So that way you can have actual business conversations, not just, yeah, we've done this and we've done that. It's great, you've accomplished a lot, but other than seeing the bodies that come in and out and facilitate the work, like there's no other way to prove our value other than to show it through the money moves.

Desiree Goldey (24:36)

Yeah, because

no one cares, right? They just care about me. Right? You need to be the connector. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. You absolutely do. And if we're not doing that, this is why we sit at the little kids table. Right?

Ashley King (24:38)

No one does care. So you have to connect it for them. You have to.

It is why

we sit at the little kids table. And to be honest, the part that sucks is, and whatever HR, if you're listening, but half the time HR doesn't know how to do this bullshit. So they're the ones usually allowed into the room. And so half the time we don't even get to be the ones that surface this and we don't get to be the ones that say, nah, nah, we should actually look into succession planning this way because this is how we work from a talent branding perspective. And if you want to do that, let's put it on a one year site.

Just whatever, you know, like those conversations don't happen. And I think it's a shame, but whenever I also think of how do we even start it, we first have to build up our competencies to where we're meeting HR with information that they're eventually like, crap, I didn't have that. I actually, what else do you have? Tell me what else you think is important. And yeah, first they're gonna take our ideas, run with them and get credit, sure, whatever.

Desiree Goldey (25:17)

Wait.

Ashley King (25:43)

But eventually there will come a time where you've become such a liaison for them that they don't feel comfortable going to these meetings without first asking you, wait, what do you think is important? What else should I bring? Because every time they bring your thoughts to the table, they get oohs and ahs. And again, you may not get credit for it, but at the end of the day, what we're looking for is better outcomes for our TA teams, which result in better outcomes for literally all of

the primary goal here is just like hey, dive into data and stop being like I know how to speak data because I know how to say they sent 12 people and then we only hired the two. That is not what we are talking about. I am talking about being able to take numbers on a wall from 50 different recruiters.

Desiree Goldey (26:11)

Yeah.

Ashley King (26:27)

and be able to say, look executive, I can tell you where XYZ gaps are and what we could do to put scaffolding around that to make improvements within three, six, five days. Like that's the type of tangible storytelling we're looking for. That's the quality and standard.

Desiree Goldey (26:41)

I wish we were all

doing that in a real way. can't say enough about how this piece for me is the missing piece for most TA teams. ⁓ It really, really is. It truly is a glass ceiling. All right, so now we get into talent outside the box, everybody. This is about the cognitive or psychological side of the things we've been talking about.

Ashley King (26:51)

Mm-hmm, it's the glass ceiling.

Desiree Goldey (27:06)

So today it's all about data and let me send it over to

Ashley King (27:10)

instead of doing a psychological piece, we are gonna do still talent outside the box, but this is more of just like an actual tangible thing. So one thing you should do, and I mentioned this and I correlated it to the level within the business, but.

You should always have a degree difficulty for every job that you hire. This could be built on a few different things, but it's very, very easy to make a matrices and kind of create this. So one, whenever you're evaluating performance for your recruiter, you have the degree difficulty in perspective, right? The other thing is whenever you have a degree difficulty, you're a better partner to your managers.

because you can say, right now we're looking at the market and based off of this role and this area for this much, I would actually say this may take us three to six months to fill. I may also say that this needs different or other requirements, whatever it may be. So when creating a degree difficulty, just know that not all roles are created equal.

that no data is created equal either. So unless it's quantified based off of how difficult it is to fill, you will never actually be getting a true read. So your matrix should include custom factors based on your orgs, but some standardized columns would include current market impacts, how much of the population is qualified for the role in that area under that salary, travel percentages and willingness, environmental conditions.

This can be created in advanced and entered into the matrix when a job code is created. So you maintain it while updating the right here, right now factors whenever you need them. things like that are what helps us and makes the world go around. So take it, run with it, improve it, make it your

Desiree Goldey (28:56)

I want to thank you all for joining us today on this awesome episode as usual. We thank you so much for listening in and please follow us on LinkedIn, Instagram, TikTok, Blue Sky. I don't know, I've run out of all these things. So many things, so many places to follow us. Please go ahead and subscribe at our website as well, talentlesspodcast.com. is soon to be the holidays going into the new year and buy your Talent List merch as well.

Ashley King (29:13)

We have too many things.

Desiree Goldey (29:25)

do it. I will see you next time. Bye.

Ashley King (29:28)

Byeeee