Katrina Kibben: Leading with Humanity and Building Better Workplaces

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Episode Summary:

Season One | Episode 19

Meet Katrina Kibben! 🎉 She’s not just a leadership speaker; she’s a LinkedIn Top Voice and the founder of Three Ears Media. With over 15 years of experience at global brands like Monster.com and Randstad, Katrina is on a mission to change how companies attract talent and foster healthy team cultures.

In this episode, she joins Talentless to discuss leading with authenticity, navigating change, and the importance of starting the hiring process with empathy.

🎧 Get ready for a smart, human conversation with one of the boldest voices in the talent industry!

🎧 Listen Anywhere You Get Your Podcast

Desiree Goldey (00:00)

Never ever ever I am just Excited for you to be here, but I am excited for your diner breakfast as well. Just so you know, cuz I Love a good diner. I just want you to know it's like my dream. It's the eat at the diner

Ashley King (00:00)

Never is it ever.

Kat Kibben (00:10)

Look, that's luxury.

Ashley King (00:10)

Hahaha

Kat Kibben (00:14)

Okay, if you are ever within 50 miles of Rockford,

Illinois, open invitation, I will take you to the best diner food ever. And I say this as someone who actively pursues diners. And the more greasy the better. So, I got you.

Desiree Goldey (00:32)

love it,

love it.

All right, folks, welcome back to Talentless, the podcast where we talk about all things the world of work and say the things that nobody wants to say out loud. Today's guest is someone I think most of you know and has done some wonderful work in the world of work. They are also the author of the new book, The Bounce Back, which I read. A leader's guide to liking yourself while you're leading people. We are so excited for you to be here today. ⁓ And so welcome.

Ashley King (00:36)

man.

Kat Kibben (01:05)

Thank you for

having me. I'm excited to be here.

Ashley King (01:06)

Yay!

Desiree Goldey (01:08)

Alright. Yeah, we are excited. ⁓ Let me start this way and I had like a whole thing I was gonna do, but I want to hear why, I know you've written other books. What made you write this one? What felt like? ⁓

Ashley King (01:09)

Yasss, we're pumped!

Kat Kibben (01:21)

Yeah,

Ashley King (01:22)

Mmm.

Kat Kibben (01:24)

I... Honestly, this is one of those, like, I was struggling with this my whole life, trying to know what to do when I didn't know what to do next. I think there were so many moments when I looked back and I could see these, like, big shifts in my life, but I handled them very, very poorly because I did not know how to navigate uncertainty.

Ashley King (01:30)

Mmm.

Kat Kibben (01:46)

I think that was at the core of it is that I thought there was a rule for everything. Funny enough, right before we hit record, we were joking about that, about how it took me almost five years to realize that I could go to a diner on a workday and start work at 1130 if I want to, because I am the boss. growing up in a military family and frankly, with all of the pressure of being the first generation to go to college, the first group to join corporate America, I think I thought there was a formula to being

Ashley King (01:46)

you ⁓

Desiree Goldey (01:47)

Hmm.

Kat Kibben (02:16)

successful and that is not a great formula for navigating uncertainty.

Desiree Goldey (02:21)

⁓

God, that feels so real to me. There's one line in the book, and I don't want to get it wrong, so it says, people might call it a midlife crisis. For me, was a midlife consciousness. For me, I want to know, that hit me when I read it. I was like, whoa. Because I feel like I'm turning 51 this year. And I'm like, this is so real. I just got goosebumps. know? I know. ⁓ my god, it was was like, woo.

Ashley King (02:31)

Mmm.

Kat Kibben (02:44)

I love that. That makes me so proud to know that I wrote something. Yeah.

Ashley King (02:44)

Aww, birthday goose!

Desiree Goldey (02:52)

But what was going on in your life that felt like that? You know, what made you pick that as the sentence?

Kat Kibben (02:54)

Yeah, I-

I mean, on the

surface, I thought...

I had done all the things I was supposed to do, so I was running a successful business, at least by the terms that I always set for success, which is I have enough money to eat, I have enough money to invest in my future, I can pay my bills, you know? That was the basis of success. I was in this beautiful apartment, staring at the Rocky Mountains. I had a great team. I had checked all the boxes, and I still felt this unease.

Ashley King (03:29)

Mmm.

Kat Kibben (03:30)

Like I was constantly trying to prevent something, but I had absolutely no idea what it was.

I didn't like my life and that that was that's really hard to say but I think Truly, I realized like all of those things that I thought I had to do didn't actually make living my life feel different and that's what I was trying to get and I think that's what I meant when I was writing about that like midlife consciousness, it's like no, I wasn't feeling like ⁓ the world is falling apart. I felt like everything was fine and I was still seeking.

Ashley King (04:08)

Hmm.

Kat Kibben (04:08)

I was

still struggling.

Ashley King (04:12)

Yeah. And I'll be, can I ask? Cause so just to be super clear, I read like a snail slug that I don't even think they have literacy. So Desiree, can she read your book? Like the moment it came out top to bottom, your girl is still probably in the preface. she, like she is just, she doesn't read like that. So let me ask you, and if this is spoilers, then like, don't answer it. Okay. But like, what was the piece? Like have you found?

that element that was missing and if this is the plot of the whole book, dude, I'm so sorry. So no spoilers for them. I because you know something I love that we're having this conversation because I've I've this is actually a moment that I'm in right now where I'm like I should actually be really satisfied. I have so much to be grateful for. I have so I have things that people are begging for and I'm still sitting here feeling empty.

Desiree Goldey (04:45)

Hahaha!

Kat Kibben (04:47)

No!

Ashley King (05:09)

and I'm still sitting here not feeling fulfilled. And I don't know what that is. I have an inkling for mine, but I just, want to listen to you. Like what, take us in the, take us in the world, give us the bounce back. What, what, what's all the things?

Kat Kibben (05:22)

You

know, so that is the premise of the book is I... So the whole idea is that I think a lot of what happened in the first half of my career led to this moment where I still felt like I wasn't enough.

Desiree Goldey (05:26)

It is.

Ashley King (05:26)

Okay.

Yes!

Kat Kibben (05:40)

It was managers and the pattern. was joking yesterday in a conversation that I was like, I have a type when it comes to managers, right? Like I loved the overachieving individual contributor that overnight went from leading it, being the best in their group to being the boss. That was that was the kind of manager that was really attracted to. And both of you are nodding because you know how toxic they are.

Desiree Goldey (05:49)

Hahaha!

Kat Kibben (06:09)

⁓ But

Desiree Goldey (06:10)

Yes.

Kat Kibben (06:12)

But these were people who did not know how to give feedback, did not know how to grow people, you just had to do the right thing and then they kind of bullied you if you didn't. And unfortunately that bullying planted a lot of seeds inside of me that made me feel like I constantly had to be seeking. And then when I was the boss, I'm five years into managing all of these people and I realized that I'm copying and pasting some of those exact same behaviors and I had no idea. I was not yelling at my people, okay? You will never see.

Desiree Goldey (06:21)

Yes.

Ashley King (06:22)

Yeah.

Desiree Goldey (06:41)

Ha!

Kat Kibben (06:42)

me talking like that to other human beings. think that's disrespectful and and you know when you've experienced the extremes of that that's that's not how I behave but I think what I realized is that I wasn't doing the most basic things to help them to be a good leader because I thought leadership was an autonomous act and I thought life was an autonomous act.

Desiree Goldey (07:05)

Mmm.

Kat Kibben (07:06)

that I just had to earn, do, hustle, fill in whatever other buzzword you want, and figure it out. And I think what I figured out for me... ⁓

Desiree Goldey (07:12)

Yeah

Ashley King (07:14)

Yeah.

Kat Kibben (07:18)

And Desiree is gonna laugh when I say this, because you read this part of the book, is like, for me to change, I have to throw myself into extreme. That's always been my style. And so my style was, I'm gonna throw myself into extreme uncertainty, because it's going to force me to rely on other people. It's gonna force me to learn how to change, how to face these things in real time. And maybe I could do it in this way that I'm actually really excited about, instead of creating some formula and signing myself up for a six week class.

Ultimately, I didn't realize it at the time, but van life was a life course. It was a life class in how to be a better leader because I had to figure out how to lead myself first. And that's why I call it the leader's guide to liking yourself and leading your people because you got to do both.

Desiree Goldey (08:02)

Yeah.

Yeah, and I think it's something that leaders fail at, right? Like so much. And it was so great because in the book, I think one of the things you said about feedback that you were receiving, it was like a weapon of destruction. And for me, like that another one where I was like, my gosh, I have seen people use this as a method of destruction and people take my feedback as a method of destruction for themselves. And that for me is like that is, you know, that's huge. And I think we miss that piece so much.

Ashley King (08:06)

Yeah.

Kat Kibben (08:14)

Mm.

Desiree Goldey (08:36)

about how do you just even give good feedback as a leader and those ICs turn leaders up. They're the worst at it, right? Because they have no idea what they're doing and it irritates me so much, so much. That's, ugh.

Kat Kibben (08:39)

Yes.

Yep.

They weaponize mistakes against their team because they weaponize the mistakes against themselves.

Ashley King (08:54)

Correct.

Kat Kibben (08:56)

You know what I'm talking about. It's the punctuation mark. Sorry, Ashley, I didn't mean to interrupt. It's the missing one punctuation mark, you know? ⁓

Ashley King (08:56)

They've never...

Desiree Goldey (08:58)

Yeah, I've had so many of them.

Ashley King (09:03)

No, hey, who am I? Yeah.

Kat Kibben (09:06)

It's that one thing and

Ashley King (09:06)

Yeah.

Desiree Goldey (09:07)

Yeah.

Kat Kibben (09:07)

then you beat yourself up over it every single time you do it. And then you become a leader and you beat them up every single time they do it. Like what a messed up cycle to think that you're doing something good for somebody by literally like attacking the problem instead of thinking about a mature solution.

Desiree Goldey (09:15)

Hehehehehe

Ashley King (09:29)

Yeah, the one thing that I say a lot is like, the best players don't always make the best coaches. And the skills that it takes to hit a home run are not the same skills that it takes to teach someone how to hit a home run. And if we can't figure out how to navigate that co-pilot space of enablement of ⁓ providing

just a safe space, right? Like I feel like there are lots of companies, like if you ask your boss a question, if you do this, they think you're questioning their competency. Like that's a lack of confidence in that leader. And that's so evident and immediately reflected back. And so it is something to where y'all are right. Like you can have the most high PO best players hitting home runs all day. That doesn't mean that they know how to teach anyone else how to do what they do.

And I think it's that gap right there of like, do I enable someone to do a copy of me? Like, how can I actually teach my recipe? ⁓ We lack that man. We just shove them up there and we're like, you did it so you can tell other people how to do it. And it's like, I don't even know if they know how they did it. They're just doing it. ⁓ so it's a, what you're talking about is spot on and it's an issue that is everywhere. And right now we have five generations in the workforce. It's only worse. Like honestly.

Desiree Goldey (10:20)

Yeah.

Yo.

Mm-hmm.

Kat Kibben (10:43)

Yep.

Desiree Goldey (10:43)

Right?

Yeah.

Kat Kibben (10:44)

Yep. Because a third of them had therapy weaponized against them and they were told that they're crazy if they go to therapy. You got a third that actually went and a third that can't afford it yet. And now we're like, ⁓ and we want you to act like healed versions of yourself when the first third are the people who think therapy is for crazy people.

Ashley King (10:44)

Yeah.

Desiree Goldey (10:56)

Right.

Ashley King (10:57)

Word.

Desiree Goldey (11:08)

Mwahaha!

Kat Kibben (11:10)

Your most senior leaders are people who have not addressed deep emotional issues that show up at work every single day.

Desiree Goldey (11:11)

HEEEH!

every single damn day, right? I mean, I always tell people I had the worst leader, toxic leader for many, many, many years. He was a yeller.

Right? And like a screamer and like he was just, he was, he was so horrible. ⁓ But I tell people like, people are like, like, why'd you move to your next job for career growth? I said, I was recovering from a leadership. I was recovering from a leader. I needed to get away from him. And that recovery process actually stunted my career for a little bit because I didn't even know how to be a leader or how to act or how to anything. And so I had to go through this like almost grief process to get myself back.

Ashley King (11:30)

Mm.

Desiree Goldey (11:59)

back

to even being a human to other humans, right? I think I'm pretty good at it now, but it took me forever to get over that experience. And then I always felt like I was doing the same thing. I'm not a yeller, but I always felt like I had some of those attributes and I had to completely remodel what I thought.

Kat Kibben (12:02)

this.

Ashley King (12:02)

Yeah.

Desiree Goldey (12:16)

I was doing as a manager and a leader and know that I don't know everything and kind of start and regroup. And that's why I love this book because it really gives you the permission to say, I don't know what I don't know, right? And especially about myself. And I need to do some deep introspection into what that means and what kind of leader I want to be. Yeah, it's great.

Ashley King (12:28)

Ahem.

Kat Kibben (12:36)

I thank you. Thank you. I really really appreciate that

because I don't know about you, but I boomeranged on feedback. So what happened is I went from the yeller and because I didn't heal my stuff. I went to I don't need to give feedback or I give it the most gentle way. So like we are not in mutual understanding at the end of this how severe it is because I have softened this to the fact it's like play-doh at this point. It doesn't even stick, you know, and I think a

Desiree Goldey (13:02)

You

Ashley King (13:03)

Hmm.

Kat Kibben (13:06)

lot of the poor leadership that we see today in all extremes. The yeller, the no feedback, the I want to be everyone's friend. And I could go on and on about all the weird stereotypes and type of leaders that I've experienced. It's like they are so often reactions and extreme opposites of what you think is good or bad.

Desiree Goldey (13:14)

Yeah.

Right? So what's the trick? I mean, you know? ⁓

Ashley King (13:30)

Yeah, absolutely.

Kat Kibben (13:34)

Well.

Ashley King (13:37)

Can we hear about it from both sides as far as your trick bag of magic tricks you're pulling out? Because I kind of want to hear,

like, because I'm guessing, because I'm not going to lie, anytime you have a bad job experience, there is this kind of grief process. Like you're grieving what you thought the role was, you grieving what you thought your life was going to look like, and you kind of got to lay that to rest. Like, so on both ends, can we hear about it from like your actual like bounce back moment of like, ⁓ okay, I've got to like, reconsolidate and pick up the pieces?

And then, I'm curious in even that part, just like the ground zero of where you're just like, F &A, man. Like, where you're just like, toss your hands up moment. Yeah.

Kat Kibben (14:14)

Totally. Well,

so I think when I was living in the van, I was learning the lessons, but I didn't realize I was learning the lessons. And I think my bag of tricks, and it's not tricks. What I think of them are as muscles. And they're muscles that I had to build because I had no other choice. And that's why I learned best in the extremes. One of the examples I give is like, ran a Tough Mudder as my very first race. And for anyone who's not familiar with that insanity, it's when you run a half

Desiree Goldey (14:27)

you

Ashley King (14:31)

Mm-hmm.

Desiree Goldey (14:35)

Yeah.

Kat Kibben (14:44)

marathon with 12 to 15 obstacles in the middle of it and that was my very first race. Okay, so just to like plant this seed in the way that my I am an extreme opposite person. That's it was a yes or no. I grew up in a military family. Everything is black and white. Everything is simple or they say it is and so ultimately I learned some key lessons and I tell the funny van stories and then I tell how these show up at work and it's like it's things like asking for help.

Desiree Goldey (14:57)

Yeah.

Ashley King (15:02)

Hmm.

Desiree Goldey (15:03)

Right. Right.

Ashley King (15:05)

Mm-hmm.

Kat Kibben (15:15)

knowing when I can change direction, learning how to quit without feeling like I am like letting down the world, you know? And these lessons, what happened is I kept having to practice during van life and then I got back to work where I didn't have all the distractions, right? I didn't have the distraction of like, ⁓ does my Wi-Fi work today? Is it too hot? Is it too cold? Do I need to move?

Desiree Goldey (15:24)

You

Kat Kibben (15:42)

All of those pieces and the constant decision fatigue removed allowed me to practice those in a really practical way where I could see where I was being toxic without even trying. Like, wait, I'm supposed to ask for help right now instead of doing this task because I have a whole team of specialists who focus on this thing and I could maybe just like get my sticky fingers off of it or like we don't have to do this because we thought it was a good idea.

Desiree Goldey (15:47)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Kat Kibben (16:11)

We can stop halfway, we can stop three quarters of the way, we can stop at 100 % and say, I still don't wanna do this and stop and quit. And it was amazing how much energy that gave my team. Like I wasn't the only one who benefited from it. I watched them start to thrive and create and have this like bandwidth outside of work that made me really proud of what we were doing, cause we were healing together. That's what...

Desiree Goldey (16:11)

Yeah.

Ashley King (16:11)

Yeah.

Mm.

⁓ I like

that.

Kat Kibben (16:40)

You

know, great leaders help us all heal. They heal our inner children. They heal our entry-level worker. They heal our middle manager, all those people that live inside of us. Great managers. They make us whole again. And there's something beautiful about that.

Desiree Goldey (16:44)

Yes.

Ashley King (16:44)

That's word.

Desiree Goldey (16:50)

Yeah.

Ashley King (16:50)

Mm-hmm.

Desiree Goldey (16:58)

I know. There

Ashley King (16:58)

Yeah.

Desiree Goldey (17:00)

really is.

Ashley King (17:01)

Yeah, they're healthy

reminders of like what it always should have been, what we should be to others and what we wish we would have had for us. those to me are like the beacons and because you only need one good one to set the tone and it's gonna illuminate all of the inconsistencies, fallacies and everything that's an issue within everyone else and it's

And especially whenever it happens, it can be quick too. I'm only sharing this part because I'm kind of in it in the moment, but it's very much ⁓ your spot on the emotional resilience that it takes to manage a team and also think that you're doing it well and actually do it well. Like all of those three data points are three different things. And again, that emotional resilience to stick with it, carry it through, have these other lives.

Desiree Goldey (17:31)

Great.

Ashley King (17:54)

that are impacted by your decision making because they take all of this home. It's a big seat. And people don't give it the weight that it's due and the impact that you make on individuals' lives. My husband always tells me all the time, the number one person who hates your boss is your spouse. Because they always have to hear the stories about everything. And so he always has a thing and he's like, well, I'm supposed to hate them the most.

Desiree Goldey (18:13)

Alright.

Kat Kibben (18:16)

You know?

Ashley King (18:23)

But it's something that we know is true. It's going, you're carrying it home with you because no matter who you are at work, you can't like chop yourself up and just be like, okay, there's that one. You're still a whole person the whole way through everywhere you go. So if I think if we started giving more reverence to the actual life, not the position, but the human, not the title, I think

Kat Kibben (18:23)

I love it.

Desiree Goldey (18:36)

Yeah.

Ashley King (18:46)

things could change. ⁓ So I'm gonna stop yapping here, because obviously like we're literally here for cat and I need to hear cat. I'm such a waste of space, please speak.

Kat Kibben (18:52)

No, I like

I I deeply feel that I think when I came back from van life, I think I just felt steadier waters, right? And I was coming at it from a steadier place and from that place I could see how impactful we are on every person we lead.

Desiree Goldey (19:08)

Yeah.

Kat Kibben (19:14)

You know, like it's not just my responsibility to teach these people how to be good at their job, which I obviously I think is part of it is to coach you into delivering the best product that I think you're capable of. But I think the second part of it is that I realized my responsibility in helping them manage the life part, because like you said, we don't get to chop ourselves up into bits and work and life are not distinct as much as the balance proposition makes them appear or

pretend

to be. It's like, like I, I want to be one of the first people. This actually happened just this week and someone on my team called me to let me know that their mom died in the middle of the night. And I hold that responsibility to her with all my heart.

But I also believe that that trust of her saying, I don't know when I can come back and me saying, okay, we got you. Like that, that's healing for every part of us. And I think it allows us to...

reach our potential of the world. Like the work I do, the reason I wrote this book, the reason I do the recruiting talks I choose and the topics that I dive into is because I believe that my purpose on this planet is to push the door open just a little bit farther so the next person can get through. Because I just, I believe that with all my heart that I was put here.

Ashley King (20:44)

Yeah, I love it.

Desiree Goldey (20:45)

What a great mission.

Kat Kibben (20:50)

to just like push as hard as I can and I was given enough energy and words and ideas and and curiosity to be able to pour my energy into that and also to recognize when I have to keep my cup for myself and I gotta move all my shit in a van and not talk to anybody for a little bit.

Ashley King (21:09)

Yeah.

Desiree Goldey (21:15)

you

Ashley King (21:15)

So I've gotta

ask, where in the van, where was like some of the coolest spots that you went? Not take us away from talent and all the important stuff, but just, let's just focus on that van for a minute. I'm very curious about the van.

Kat Kibben (21:22)

Yeah, so the

first month of van life I did the entire coast of Florida, which obviously I probably wouldn't do in this political climate, but in January there's really not a better place to be living outside than Key West. ⁓

Ashley King (21:30)

voice.

Desiree Goldey (21:39)

Yeah, right?

Ashley King (21:39)

Mmm.

Kat Kibben (21:40)

Truly, like I went to Key West,

Ashley King (21:40)

Nice!

Kat Kibben (21:43)

I met a fireman on day one who told me where to park for free. I got on my bike and I rode around Key West for like two days with a jar of sangria in my back pack. Like that is life. Okay. That is right.

Ashley King (21:53)

⁓ that's the best day I've ever heard. Why aren't we doing that right now? Like,

Desiree Goldey (21:58)

No, I know, like, right.

Ashley King (21:59)

what are we doing? Catch us at Reckfest, y'all. Sangria on the back of our bike.

Kat Kibben (22:01)

Exactly. I'm just going

Desiree Goldey (22:02)

I know. Anyway. ⁓

Kat Kibben (22:04)

to show up with a backpack of sangria and be like, hey, y'all. It could happen. It could happen. ⁓ OK, so heading west, think New Mexico

Ashley King (22:07)

Dude, don't check the bags, y'all. Like, we're coming.

Kat Kibben (22:13)

is the most underrated state in this entire country. It's a and it is a very, blue state in a very red area of this country. And it's weird, but like not Portland weird. It's weird, like.

Ashley King (22:16)

Interesting.

Desiree Goldey (22:17)

Interesting.

Ashley King (22:25)

It's

Kat Kibben (22:29)

these people actually care about each other and they want the best for their neighbor and they think everyone should be employed and have access to resources. Like they provide free childcare in the state of New Mexico.

Desiree Goldey (22:32)

There's community.

I'm

Kat Kibben (22:43)

They have healthcare. They have, I mean, it's remarkable. And the mountains. ⁓ the mountains are stunning. All the way from the bottom to the top. It's beautiful. Just take I-25, stop wherever you want. Stunning. ⁓ And the last one I would give you is in Vegas. There's a place called Valley of Fire that's about 45 minutes away from the strip. So if you get stuck in Vegas for more than like three days, we all know you got to rest.

Ashley King (22:43)

Mm.

Desiree Goldey (22:44)

Wow.

Yeah.

Ashley King (22:46)

Mm-hmm.

beautiful.

Mm-hmm.

Desiree Goldey (22:58)

Yeah, that's awesome.

Kat Kibben (23:13)

a car and like go do something or else you kind of like twitch from that. ⁓ If it's not summer go to Valley of Fire it's like ten dollars to get in it and it is otherworldly. If you love like Star Wars and space it is like space but on earth stuff you have never ever seen I can almost guarantee.

Desiree Goldey (23:15)

Yeah, right. Yeah, right?

Ashley King (23:17)

You out of money, honey. Yeah. Yeah.

Desiree Goldey (23:23)

Yeah.

Ashley King (23:37)

Okay, I'm interested.

Desiree Goldey (23:38)

Interesting, everybody goes to the Valley of Fire right now. Right now. I know, Montana's gorgeous. Yeah, I mean, it's gorgeous there, that's why.

Ashley King (23:41)

Yeah, space on-

Kat Kibben (23:41)

Yes, and Montana. I got stuck in Montana.

I went for a week and I was

Ashley King (23:50)

Yeah.

Kat Kibben (23:51)

there for like three months. I'm like, okay. yeah, I just loved it.

Desiree Goldey (23:53)

Really?

Ashley King (23:58)

I've always heard it's stunning. Like just a beautiful place.

Desiree Goldey (24:00)

It is beautiful.

Kat Kibben (24:01)

If it didn't get

that kind of ugly cold from like August to March, I'd consider living there.

Desiree Goldey (24:02)

It really is. Yes! Yeah. Yeah, because it's so cold! It's like, ugly cold is the right wording there. It's like nasty cold. I can't do it. I live in Texas. You know. Yeah. No! Uh-uh. Not having any of that thing.

Ashley King (24:05)

Dude, that's how I feel about Moth.

Kat Kibben (24:16)

Yeah, yep, that's shovel the roof weather. I don't do that.

Ashley King (24:21)

What? I don't shovel nothing.

Yeah, no, shovel nothing for me. Like, the cold makes my spine hurt. Like, it's not gonna work well.

Kat Kibben (24:27)

Right?

Desiree Goldey (24:31)

Katz, Ashley's gonna hate this question, but I'm gonna ask it anyway. In the world that we're moving to with AI and all this crazy, I would love to hear your views on leading in the world of AI, and we're just at the beginning of this thing, and so I'm interested to just hear your take on it, and if you have one, I would love to hear it.

Ashley King (24:35)

snap.

Kat Kibben (24:55)

So next week at Wreckfest, I'm

going to give a presentation that I've been working on for a little bit for the very first time. And it is called the billion dollar problem. And it's about job data. And the hypothesis I am making is that our data is standing between us and all of our AI aspirations. And we're all gonna, can I say the F word here? We're all gonna fuck around and find out and hit the wall really soon. Because.

Ashley King (25:08)

Hmm.

Desiree Goldey (25:18)

Yeah. Yeah.

Ashley King (25:19)

Yeah!

Yeah.

Kat Kibben (25:24)

Right now, we have inconsistent and unreliable and unpredictable, meaning this piece of information, example, a job posting, actually doesn't predict who we get on the other side. It's kind of a blurred estimate of what you think you're going to get. And I think we have to get that right or we're just going to waste a lot of money on AI.

And right now we have a lot of HR technology companies who are trying to create false illusions of taxonomies around skills. I think skills based hiring is trash and I'm going to say that out loud. So please give me a little bit of an applause when I say that and all of the vendors look at me like I just told them their baby was ugly. ⁓ But I believe we're creating false taxonomies because they do not have a fundamental understanding of work and the data that we need to be predictive. And so

Ashley King (26:09)

Mm-hmm.

Kat Kibben (26:18)

I have kind of invested my energy and attention into trying to figure out an answer to that problem and I'm going to give a couple of

quick solutions I know work because I've actually implemented them and helped teams do this at scale across teams that are hiring between 1,000 and 5,000 people a year. And I'm just going to give the four things I do know work so far and give everyone what I know because that's what I think about AI right now is anyone who's absolute is a liar.

Ashley King (26:32)

Mmm.

Desiree Goldey (26:43)

Nuts.

Kat Kibben (26:53)

And so my whole thought process and kind of what I try to do every week with my blog and even conversations like this is just tell you exactly where I'm at right now and what I figured out.

Desiree Goldey (27:05)

Yeah, I love that. I'm gonna steal the AI, absolute AI. You're a liar. Lying for everybody. Just everyone on the planet, okay? Because it's just unbelievable to me. Yes. All in one. ⁓ my gosh.

Ashley King (27:05)

Yeah.

Yeah, we're all AI experts, don't you know? Yeah.

Kat Kibben (27:19)

All in one. If I hear the phrase all in

one one more time, these eyes are gonna lock somewhere back here. They're not...

Desiree Goldey (27:28)

One more recruiting tool that says that I'm going to throw you in the trash like seriously and it's just so bad. It's so bad right now.

Ashley King (27:36)

Yeah, Desiree was someone that we

were at the HR Tech Conference on the floor giving a podcast in front of all of these HR Tech brands. And this woman literally says, well, as far as I'm concerned, all of HR Tech is trash. That's how it starts. And you know what though? She ain't wrong. She ain't wrong because it's made by people who haven't ever been in HR or TA. It's made, honestly, they make their money off of people and

Desiree Goldey (27:41)

Yeah

Now. ⁓

Ashley King (28:05)

Process dysfunction. That's how they profit. So they are not aligned with people in process in general This was our whole podcast in front of all of them and then at the end of it We were like by the way women are 51 % of the population and 2 % of the population in HR tech But 81 % of the people actually operating it so like where are the ladies and why aren't we profiting? Because the only people who really profit in HR are the ones who make the tech. They're the ones who make move the needle. It's just like

Kat Kibben (28:06)

Exactly that.

Desiree Goldey (28:07)

Yeah. Yeah.

Kat Kibben (28:13)

Yes!

Desiree Goldey (28:27)

Hahaha

Ashley King (28:34)

⁓ greenhouse, okay, so greenhouse and clear. Like that's gonna move a needle for the future. Like no matter what happens from this, no matter what decisions an ATS makes, it's going to change what ends up happening because now they're having to take additional layers of is this person real, is this? And so now we're gonna use biometric data and that's not, right now we have other types of ⁓ protected classes as far as. ⁓

Desiree Goldey (28:34)

Ugh.

Yeah.

Ashley King (29:00)

your genetic information, but we don't necessarily have anything up to date on biometric data. So for me, that's my issue is like the tech is moving way too fast. Legislation is moving way too slow. There are people in this who are like, we don't even have the people getting their shit straight enough for us to slap on a fake person and say, okay, go do that. And it's like, y'all can't even manage real people. now we're going to be so it's, it's very much where, ⁓

Kat Kibben (29:27)

Yes.

Ashley King (29:30)

Again, we pull these levers, people pull the HR tech lever whenever they should be pulling the people management and process improvement lever and they slap it on like a bandaid. So hey, just know that you're in the right room. Like if you wanna ever meet someone who will tell HR tech they're trash to their face, her name's Desiree, she's right here. And literally whenever she said it, I was like, Desiree, can't say that.

Kat Kibben (29:40)

Exactly.

Desiree Goldey (29:44)

Trash

I was like why not? I was like come have him come get me

Ashley King (29:56)

Yeah, no, but so you're in great company.

Kat Kibben (29:57)

I love it. I love it.

No, and that's exactly the point

I'm going to make. And you're going to love this presentation because that's kind of the build up is that writing one job post is not going to help anything. Writing 500 job postings, AI generating job posts does not fix anything, right? Skills based hiring makes the problem worse. All the things that make a bad job posting are actually the archetype of what skills based hiring is based off of. What actually fixes the problem and where we should be focused on right now is process.

Desiree Goldey (30:03)

Yeah. Good, good. Me too.

Ashley King (30:05)

I love it already.

Desiree Goldey (30:24)

Right.

Kat Kibben (30:29)

And I wanna be so, so clear. This is not about iterating, okay? You know that Henry Ford quote is when he said, ⁓ if I had asked people what they wanted, they would have told me they wanted a faster horse. That when you are designing your process right now, I dream that someone, anyone will just say, you know what? Let's start from a blank slate.

Desiree Goldey (30:36)

Right.

Yes, yes, yes.

Ashley King (30:43)

Mmm.

Kat Kibben (30:55)

Let's start from data. Let's start from research. Does this make sense? Is it predictive of the outcome we want? Does it help us get there? And that's the work I'm doing right now. And that feeds my soul. Like people are at HR Tech, people are like, you seem so happy. And I'm like, yeah, it's because I'm not copying and pasting the same bullshit I'm doing and expecting people to be better because they aren't. They don't fundamentally understand what we need. And that's why we need to start from zero, not change this step.

Ashley King (30:55)

Yes!

Desiree Goldey (30:55)

Yeah.

Hahaha

Ashley King (31:18)

Yeah.

Desiree Goldey (31:19)

Bye.

Kat Kibben (31:25)

expect drier results.

Ashley King (31:28)

Thank you. So much of what we do is in people's imagination of what they think it should be. And I'm sorry, but without data, you are just an opinion. And I can't use that to create a whole Fortune 200 company process on. We need to get in there. And this is the other thing, because there is no recruiter university until TalentEd was created, but because they don't even know how to read data. Like they don't know how to see and connect the dots of like, ⁓ because of this and this, you're not

not filling the job because your recruiters bad, you're not filling the job because it looks like you have five people that have gone to executive and they all get cut off. That's an intra team misalignment. That's an issue from leadership to them. That ain't got nothing to do with talent. And so it's even just tiny things like that of like just carrying the accurate narrative of what we see by looking at data. And it's like, it's not even like there's just so much room.

for activities, but so much room for learning. Sorry to bring step brothers into it, but I had to for the moment. ⁓ But so much room for learning and literally just making this so much flipping better. I'm gonna stop talking. I need to listen to y'all.

Desiree Goldey (32:31)

Yeah.

Kat Kibben (32:32)

Because

the talent leader, and this is why most HR tech solutions are not solutions at all, is because they do not fall in love with problems. They fall in love with monetization of problems. Great talent leaders, the HR recruiting, and I make this the big bucket of talent, meaning we are the people function, the best of them fall in love with the problem.

Desiree Goldey (32:45)

Right, right.

Kat Kibben (33:00)

They fall in love with it. The best consultants, they've fallen in love with a problem. And they deeply research it. Example, I love job postings. Nerdy as shit, I don't care. I love job data because I know it is the first door we open. I told you my life's purpose is to kick the door a little bit. That's the door. That's the first door. And I did a 100 year research study of them.

Ashley King (33:22)

Mmm.

Kat Kibben (33:28)

Tell me you think some skills-based hiring vendor who went to MIT and has never had a real job is going to come up with a solution for this problem.

Desiree Goldey (33:38)

Right, it's exactly the point. You're 17 steps away from the actual thing that you're trying to solve. It makes no sense at all. It is.

Ashley King (33:45)

And that's 90 % of HR tech owners. They were some manager

and their first job and hated the way an ATS worked. And now here we are, hyper ATS in the beat. And they're like, well, we don't know where to take it to the next step or do this or do that. And again, it's just so interesting to me how much of that sector that is fully in charge of essentially HR innovation, TA people innovation, as far as it's concerned, and the ones that get to push the envelope.

It's just so interesting to me how much of it is not owned by people in the practice. And it's shocking to me how much of it is strictly based off of how much money can we make from their dysfunction. Indeed, profits from your dysfunction. How do I know that? Because they were the ones that posted articles of how do you beat the ATS. What? Like they were the ones that started, cause I did a research project on that 100 years, I swear, trying to figure out where did this even come from? Can anyone name an ATS we can't beat? And where did the...

Desiree Goldey (34:29)

I know.

Kat Kibben (34:34)

You

Ashley King (34:41)

the resumes that we lost, where do those go? Like a unicorn island? Like can anyone answer any of these questions for me? And the answer's no. And so again, it's just, it's an interesting time to be alive in HR. Because sometimes it's just like, why are you here?

Desiree Goldey (34:48)

It is. It is. It's crazy out here in these streets.

Kat Kibben (34:48)

Unicorn Island.

Well, and I think full circle

moment, right, is the other conversation that's happening right now because of this wild, wild west of what's hot, what's not, and everything else is how do we upskill in real time? And I think this is also an area where we are severely lacking because no one is willing to say out loud that the best upskilling that you could possibly do is just to prepare your team for how to thrive in uncertainty.

Desiree Goldey (35:25)

Right, right, which

is the skill they don't, most of them don't have, right? And so, Yeah. Yeah.

Ashley King (35:30)

Living in the gray.

Kat Kibben (35:31)

Yep.

Ashley King (35:33)

So let me

ask, what would you say is like number one weapon of destruction in your toolkit that you would keep? Sorry, I said weapon of destruction, because you all said that. But no, what is a weapon in your toolbox that you would keep that you say helps with that, helps with that portion and something that people should have in their toolkit so they're not falling into that?

Kat Kibben (35:57)

slowing down. Removing urgency because the things that we pretend are urgent just aren't.

Desiree Goldey (36:08)

I know. Yes.

Ashley King (36:08)

manufactured.

Kat Kibben (36:09)

Manufactured

urgency it literally will make you miserable my letter actually tomorrow is about that about so I went to Italy for my birthday, right? I took this sabbatical I felt so fancy not working right I felt like magic. I mean I was in that place where I was like eating a croissant on the street. You got me and You feel me I travel well I eat well and

Desiree Goldey (36:21)

Nice. ⁓

Ashley King (36:31)

You and Sangria Bites and Crissence on the street, like what? I'm telling ya, we're

coming to your backpack.

Kat Kibben (36:38)

Picture this,

I get to the airport and I'm surrounded by Americans, all trying to get on the plane back to the US and that magic was just... I was holding on so tight, it was gone! And I realized it was because I bought into the urgency. I chose urgency over the magic.

Desiree Goldey (36:48)

It was destroyed. Destroyed. ⁓

Yeah.

Kat Kibben (37:02)

And the reality is we don't come up with any answers because we rushed ourselves. We come up with our answers because we have space. So I think the real magic is probably the idea that I have invested more in learning about creativity and idea generation because I can't take one more prompting class. I'm sorry. But I can't take one more awful AI class. I don't know how many you've taken, but I've had enough. And.

Desiree Goldey (37:03)

Yeah.

Yeah. I've taken a couple and they're

horrible. They're so bad.

Kat Kibben (37:32)

They're awful?

Ashley King (37:32)

take any and I know that that sounds

terrible. I'm probably the hot take of the opposite. I haven't taken a single one and it's because until we have people and process fixed I'm not even moving to it. I mean I'm gonna use it. I know I check my AI with my AI but you're spot-on like I... Anyway sorry keep going.

Kat Kibben (37:42)

Right.

That's it. No,

no, I'm just saying like I think that's it is like I'm leaning into learning how to come up with ideas and make and creating flow around creativity. I want to be better at creativity right now because that's the part that AI not even going to touch.

Desiree Goldey (38:06)

always tell my team, if you're working at 100 % at an 11 all the time, you have stopped being creative and innovative. I need to make sure your workload is somewhere in the sevens, or even the sixes even if I can get it there, because then you're gonna come up with all this great stuff, and you're gonna be creative, you're gonna innovate, you're gonna come up with ideas, you're gonna really spark, and you're gonna wanna come to work. If you have your team working at an 11 all the time,

It kills all of that. So I love that you're embracing that creativity part. I wish more teams would do it. This idea that we always need to be at rapid speed. Unless my heart is stopped, I don't know why anybody is running around. Like running around fixing all the talent problems or whatever. It just doesn't make any sense to me. Slow down, chill out. It's gonna be okay.

Kat Kibben (38:57)

Yeah!

Yes, we did. There's two things

that made me think about is number one, the research actually suggests that that is the best way to lead a team. So the research says that if you are reaching more than 85 % of your goals, you're not actually learning anything.

But we all know that goal setting is not built around any margin for error. So as a leader, I always keep that in mind. Like, let's get 85%. That's our aim. And when we are hitting 100%, I know that I am actually not pushing this person or growing them the way that I want to. But second, something that we did on my team that really helped with the urgency is we had an explicit conversation about SLAs around responding to email.

Desiree Goldey (39:22)

Right.

No.

Ashley King (39:47)

Mm-hmm.

Kat Kibben (39:48)

And

Desiree Goldey (39:48)

Mm-hmm.

Kat Kibben (39:48)

I think we skip

this one because we think like, we're all adults. You can decide when you respond to your email. No, no. This is a trauma response that shows up. And I noticed it in one of my people who, she was an intern for me. And then she went and worked at a recruiting agency for a really toxic boss. And about two years later, she called me up and was like, please, can I come home? Can I come home? Like, please. I was like, come on, let's go. And I plucked her right back. But.

Ashley King (39:58)

Mm-hmm.

you

Desiree Goldey (40:14)

Hmm.

Kat Kibben (40:17)

Urgent response to email is a trauma response. And so we just added it to our email signature and it says I respond to most emails within 48 hours So that I can fully consider what you're asking And we just tell them I Have it on every single email I said it's gonna be 48 hours when I bring someone new on the team It's gonna be 48 hours unless you text me

Ashley King (40:33)

Yeah.

Desiree Goldey (40:33)

⁓ it's

so beautiful.

Kat Kibben (40:44)

And I remember I commented on someone's LinkedIn and I said that, y'all, you would have thought that I like challenged one of their core beliefs or something and told them like, like that I really fucked them up. Like, don't aren't you letting people down? I was like, go to therapy.

Ashley King (40:44)

Yeah.

Desiree Goldey (41:01)

You need some help, brah.

Ashley King (41:02)

Go to therapy.

Need help.

Kat Kibben (41:06)

And not from

me. Because if you think an email is more important than your sanity, pray on it, work on it.

Desiree Goldey (41:08)

Yeah

Ashley King (41:12)

Mmm.

Desiree Goldey (41:13)

But that's the world we live

in. It's really sad, right? And especially in the United States. You know, the fact that you were getting on a plane with Americans and like the bottom fell out. It's true, right? Because we're always, it's such, it's ridiculous. My mom's like, I don't understand why you work a million hours a day. I don't know, because I live here in United States and this is what you do. I don't know what to tell you, mom. But this is what happens. But it's so unfair to a person, their mental health, their body, their physical, mental,

Spirit and you just can't be working at this level all the time and expect good results It just it can't happen and I think as leaders it's our responsibility to make sure that isn't happening And in most workplaces that is not true, right? It is not true. It's like I need to hit these goals. So you're gonna work really hard I'm gonna work really hard. We're all gonna be crazy together and it's like crazy pot. That's it's insane. It's it's Total and utter insanity to me, right? ⁓

Kat Kibben (42:12)

Yeah.

Ashley King (42:12)

Yeah.

Desiree Goldey (42:13)

We haven't slowed down yet and we haven't figured out this is the problem. So I am here for it. Yeah. Right?

Kat Kibben (42:17)

Rest is

Ashley King (42:17)

Well,

Yeah. And I think that there's

like new age generational impact as well as far as like, does like whenever your mom was working, if her boss wanted to reach her, they had to wait till she showed up. Like now it's on my phone, it's on my watch, it's on my like, I can't get away from the girl. Like she following me everywhere. And so in that light,

Desiree Goldey (42:31)

Yeah, right.

Yeah.

Right

Ashley King (42:43)

And whenever we're looking at macro systems change like that, it's almost like we gotta go five steps further to make sure that our employees know. cause I on my signature have, I'm sending this when it's convenient for me, you respond when it's convenient for you. Cause I have kids, if I got to cut out half the day, then I will and I'll get back on at night and I'm going to do what I want. But I also know I'm a manager and I don't ever want that to intimidate you. So I want you to respond whenever you feel it's respond and having that clear, concise conversation of like, this is the culture, this is the maintain.

And this is whenever I would say we're not hitting success. So as long as we stay on these bounds, we're cool, dude. so I completely agree. And I think, again, we don't have enough people paying attention to the macro fact of even the way that we reach out to employees, it's in their pocket always. There's never a time it's gone. It's on their phone. And I even work somewhere where we have a work phone, but I still bring them.

Desiree Goldey (43:17)

Yeah.

I know.

Ashley King (43:38)

because it's like, you know, so it's just something where what you're saying is so, it's such a thoughtful but tiny change that makes a large impact. And I don't even think our times have caught up to that idea of the access that we have to employees and how we're not respecting that, that boundary as employers really much anymore.

Desiree Goldey (43:49)

Yeah.

Ashley King (44:01)

⁓ And what that does to the psyche in general of like always being on ⁓ and that idea of I need to respond because I got it even though it's six and it's just this brand new perception of life of now they can count me for unperformance in my personal time and that wasn't something that could have happened before. Yeah.

Kat Kibben (44:20)

Yep, so many of the standards

Desiree Goldey (44:21)

Yeah.

Kat Kibben (44:23)

of work are contrary to the values that we paste on the wall. You know, like they'll be like, we're compassionate and caring and I expect you to respond to an email at 930 at night. Fuck you. How your behavior has to reflect your values in action or they are just vocabulary words and this is not a kindergarten classroom and we don't need those posters.

Ashley King (44:27)

Yes ma'am.

Desiree Goldey (44:27)

Wait!

Right? Anyway.

Ashley King (44:36)

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, no. You mean the Courage poster with the bear on it and holding a ball? That's not going to inspo us?

Desiree Goldey (44:50)

Stop with the posters.

Kat Kibben (44:59)

My personal favorite, remember

I did Fortune 500 EVPs for a big chunk of time before I started Three Ears Media. So I can actually draw the circle for you, know, and the wavy line through the middle that has four different colors of each of the values. I could AI generate some values for you right now. ⁓

Desiree Goldey (45:04)

Yeah.

Yes.

Ugh, yeah, it's the whole thing.

Ashley King (45:16)

Ahem.

Desiree Goldey (45:20)

I know! ⁓

Ashley King (45:21)

EGENERATE

Kat Kibben (45:21)

Everybody

wants a highly collaborative team player to join their group of rock stars to accelerate the future into the AI world. I- yeah... I...

Desiree Goldey (45:24)

Of course.

There you go, there you go.

Ashley King (45:31)

efficient,

high effectiveness, performing, like all the the cool slogan terms. Yeah.

Kat Kibben (45:33)

Bingo! Yep,

exactly, exactly.

Desiree Goldey (45:36)

Rock stars.

stars. ⁓ ca- ooh.

Ashley King (45:41)

One thing, ⁓

I know, I'm the worst. Desiree, don't look at me like that. It wasn't that much of an interruption. It was just like a light one, not like a heavy one. The only thing I was gonna say, one thing that Kat hit on that I was like, that's so spot on, is the urgency part, because I'm gonna tell you right now, all the managers that I reported to that actually felt like an adult in the room, which to me, that's the feeling I get whenever it's a good manager. Like I actually feel like we have an adult in the room who is a calm, steady force.

that knows their stuff that is like and you know I'm gonna share this one but there was a gentleman that I used to work with he had come over from Dupont and he was the head of sales for this large group and we just acquired them they weren't making as much money and everybody was freaking out and he took us all to dinner in Louisiana and he said to us he's like I'm gonna tell you right now you're gonna hear something from me that you may not hear from anyone else but ⁓ I'm not gonna say the company name but he was like

At this point, or I'm just gonna use the term DuPont, because they weren't DuPont at this time, but he was like, we made money at DuPont then, we're gonna make money at DuPont now, and I don't need y'all to be worrying about that piece. I need you to like, and like, I don't know why, but that was the first time I had ever heard a leader just straight up call it out, the elephant in the room.

and be like, I know everybody's freaking out. sometimes they'll do that, you know, where it's like, oh yeah, we had to stop hiring. So it's not a layoff and we'll talk about it. But like, this was the first time that someone was actually like, yeah, P &L is not matching. Stuff's going down. But I can like, you know, and he was right. And he was a steady force and it kept them calm enough to keep producing to where they did make their bottoms lines match. anyway, that was the last thing I wanted to add on was because I was like the idea of urgency, this calm, steady force.

That is some, it's such an attractive trait. Genuinely, I can't express it enough.

Kat Kibben (47:25)

that.

Desiree Goldey (47:25)

It is.

Kat Kibben (47:27)

and

no one is thriving when they're scared. Like this is not some money ball, know, Leonardo DiCaprio, like kind of work that we do not thrive there. And I actually, that's another chapter of the book and the research that I did going into this is like looking at why we are so hardwired to fear because it, we are, it is innate. And I think you just hit on something I think is really, really important to say is like,

Desiree Goldey (47:34)

I know.

⁓ No.

Kat Kibben (47:57)

Part of our responsibility is to help people not be scared because you'll never create your best work if you are operating from fear.

Desiree Goldey (48:05)

Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.

Ashley King (48:06)

Yes, 100 % and so

many leaders manage out of fear. That's like their go to box. That's their toolkit. Yeah, that's their

Desiree Goldey (48:11)

it's their favorite tool kit. They're like picking

that one up every day, you know? So horrible.

Kat Kibben (48:16)

Yeah, both of my parents are

military officers. Yeah, I get it.

Desiree Goldey (48:21)

Okay.

Ashley King (48:23)

Yeah, so it's like wake up in the morning like yeah

Desiree Goldey (48:23)

Yeah. We'll just leave that there.

Kat Kibben (48:28)

No

shit. I mean, truly. I see it show up in me all the time when I'm like, do I need to apply this level of rigor to this problem? No. That's life altering. That's 40 over 30 right there.

Desiree Goldey (48:31)

HUEH!

Yeah.

Ashley King (48:39)

No

Desiree Goldey (48:43)

There you go. Cut. This has been fantastic. my gosh, so good. We are so excited to see you at breakfast as well. ⁓

Ashley King (48:52)

Yeah.

Desiree Goldey (48:53)

Everybody don't forget to get the bounce back factor. I don't know if you can see it with my big blue white light there, but ⁓ By Katrina Kevin I read it. It's fantastic. She's been today are fantastic and I am super excited For this episode to come out for everybody to listen to cat any last words and then give us all the what is what do call it Ashley? When we talk about where to find them

Ashley King (49:18)

⁓

didn't you call it a plug party? It's your plug party! Like this little baby plug party.

Desiree Goldey (49:22)

yes! Cat!

Cat, please do the vlog party for us. I appreciate it. Yes!

Kat Kibben (49:29)

⁓ I have nothing to add except

thank you to both of you for allowing me to just show up exactly as I am to feel like I'm talking to two old friends about how we make life just a little bit better because I think that's when we all get to do our best work is when we just push that door just a little bit. And so for my plug party, ⁓ what I always say is I'm the only Katrina Kibben in the world so if you spell my name right you'll find me. If you spell my name wrong you'll find a priest for the

Ashley King (49:58)

Yay!

Kat Kibben (49:59)

House of Representatives and you will know that you are in the wrong place because I am too gay for that job. And I would absolutely love for us to connect. If you want to see the pretty pictures from Van Life or anything else that I'm doing, that's over on Instagram, but all the recruiting stuff is on my YouTube channel and on LinkedIn.

Desiree Goldey (50:21)

Fantastic.

Thank you so much. Bye!

Kat Kibben (50:24)

Thank you. ⁓

Ashley King (50:28)

out.